Abt 1873 - Bef 1900 (~ 26 years)
||Herman Seybold |
||McDonough county, Illinois, USA
- On the 1900 Census, it is said that only five children of JR and Amanda are living, so Herman must have been deceased.
- Herman is purported to have been rowdy and a villain. Dardenelle said he was a crook and died with something wrong with his head (Aug, 1997). His mother, dying of tuberculosis, sold her ranch to pay for medical expenses and he is reported to have stolen the money from her and left the family destitute. From the 1900 census information, it would seem he was dead, but the allegation that he stole the money would imply to me that he outlived her -- though this may not be true.
Is this the same person? (the age works).....
The Choctaw 2nd Judicial District Groom's marriage index at http://members.tripod.com/~mccurtain_2/marriages/gmarriage1s1.html lists:
- Seybold, Herman, 22, Coalgate, C.N., I.T., to Smallwood, Lottie Mrs., 23, Coalgate, C.N., I.T., to 24 Nov 1894.
||Mar 22, 2018 |
||John Robert Seybold, b. Abt 1832, McDonough county, Illinois, USA , d. 1891, Ardmore, Carter county, Chickasaw Nation, I.T. (Oklahoma), USA (Age ~ 59 years) |
||Amanda Jane Welch, b. May 1844, Kentucky, USA , d. Bef Dec 1902, Center, Pontotoc county, Indian Territory, USA (Age ~ 58 years) |
||Aug 26, 1865
||McDonough county, Illinois, USA 
- Doris Seybold, (Zeb's daughter) said that her father never talked of his family. Hazel Cloud (Lizzie's daughter) wrote in November 1997 that "mama never discussed her family with us."
A Warranty Deed of October 19, 1870 signed by Jasper N. Seybold and his wife, Henry Etta Seybold, in Sciota township, McDonough county, Illinois deeding land to his brother, John R. Seybold, for the amount of $159.18.
1870 McDonough County, Illinois census data (from Linda Worstell), Sciota township, p. 25, shows:
J.R. SEYBOLD, age 38, grocer, born IL
Amanda J. SEYBOLD, age 24, born KY
Idonialila (sic) SEYBOLD, age 3, born IL
Vitua (sic) SEYBOLD, age 5-1/2, born IL
1880 McDonough County, Illinois census data, Sciota township, p. 5, shows:
name, marital status, gender, age, birthplace, occupation, father's birthplace, mother's birthplace
John SEYBOLD, M, M, 49, IL, Grocer, KY, KY
Amanda SEYBOLD, M, F, 35, KY, House Keeping, KY, KY
Idumea SEYBOLD, S, F, 13, IL, At School, IL, IL
Vetura SEYBOLD, S, F, 10, IL, At School, IL, IL
Herman SEYBOLD, S, M, 7, IL, At School, IL, IL
Theadore SEYBOLD, S, M, 5, IL, At Home, IL, IL
John SEYBOLD, S, M, 1, IL, At Home, IL, IL
From these, the birth order of J.R. and Amanda's children is confirmed, Amanda's middle initial is shown to be "J", and their birth dates can be approximated.
List of taxable lots for 1880 and 1881 shows that John R. Seybold paid taxes on lots 1, 2, and 3 at the North end of Buel Street on the West side and, in 1882, he paid taxes on one lot and part of another.
"Macomb Journal", Thursday, June 17, 1882: "Thomas Head has bought the store building of J.R. Seybold." And, in the December issue, the notice "Mr. Thomas Head has purchased the Seybold property, and will move to town in the Spring."
"Sciota news items: John R. Seybold has gone on a prospecting tour through the Southwest. John has been a long time getting started, but now he has gone -- he means business."
"Sciota items: J.R. Seybold and C. Moschel shipped their goods to Texas, last week. Their families start in a few days."
After living in Texas for 6 years, J.R. sold his business to his friend, Christian Moschel, and moved his family again, in the fall of 1889, to Ardmore, Indian Territory and opened a general store there. It is suspected that J.R. died soon after arriving in I.T. In Idema's petition for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation in August of 1896, she notes that he is deceased but no date is given. He (or Amanda after his death) purportedly owned the JR Cattle Ranch close to Antlers and Kiamichi, Oklahoma. Idema said, in her petition to the 1896 Dawes Commission, that he was a Cherokee Indian, but many of her supporting statements appear to be either mistaken or blatantly false.
On April 7, 1926, his son, Zeb Seybold, wrote the following to a Mr. Emmett Seybold in Macomb Illinois on a piece of sheet music he'd published:
"My father ran a store at Sciota, Ill. for 15 years and his name was John Robert Seybold. He had a brother named George. My mother was born in Ky. Her name was Amanda Welch. She had one relation in Ill. named Sylvester Welch. Do you know of any of these folks and write me their address & names ..... P.S. I run a Barbershop, music is just a sideline only."
In a letter dated March 8, 1885 from Chatfield Texas, J.R. Seybold writes:
"Yours received, & noted. Was glad to hear from you. We are all well & hope this will find you enjoying the same blessing. I expect from accounts we have had here, that it has been very cold north. The winter has been colder than usual here, but the winters here would not be called cold north. It seldom freezes hard enough to stop the plow. I have two renters on my place; they have planted their corn. I expect to commence planting in the morning. This will give you an idea of the difference between this climate, & where you are. I am farming but do not expect to farm longer than this season, if circumstances favors going into the mercantile business. The crop was not good here last season, money matters are close here. Now is a good time to buy land here. Land is steadly (sic) increasing in value here, & is a good investment. They generaly (sic) have prety (sic) good schools here, but of course not so well fited (sic) up, as in older states. The people here are generaly (sic) kind, & clever. We have as a (????) Illinoians, Indianians, Kentuckians, Alabamians, Tenneseeans (sic), & some from other States, but few of Texians. It is best for persons from the North to come here about the 1st of Octo, the change is too great in climate to come in the Spring. Now since I left Ills, I have not heard any thing about the Canada money, left there by Silus Seybold. It is very strange to me that nothing of a definite nature can be learned of it. There is something wrong somwhere (sic). Write to John Coffman & see if they have heard out anything
"Now as to this country, it is not as fertile a Soil as Ills, compared with the part where we lived, but compared with a majority of the States, it is a fine soil and excels. The climate far surpa??? Ills. I would not live in as cold a climate as Ills. I am not far from a 150 miles South of the North Texas line, & Sometimes I wish I was further South. There is a good place adjoining me, that's for Sale it belongs to heirs. Three are not of age yet. They intend getting a ????? from court to sell it. It (sic) think it will come in this fall. If I had the money I would buy it. Tell aunt Hatie (??). She is old to change climate, but it might be beneficial to her, but do not come before about the 1st of Oct. The familys best respects to you all, my best respects you all, hoping to hear from you soon. Bro, George is talking of selling out, if he sells I look for him here this fall, May the Lord watch over us all for good is my prayer.
Farewell, write soon,
In January, 1889, J.R. sold some land to Christian Moschel, recorded in the Navarro county courthouse.
Another letter is written to Margaret Foote by J.R. from Rice, Texas in March, 1890. The envelope is postmarked "RICE, TEX. (date illegible)" on one side and "DECORRA, ILL Mar 6, 1890" on the other. It is addressed to:
"Margret A. Foote
"Tecoria, Henderson, Co,
The stationery is printed:
"Rice, Texas, ___________
"To | C. MOSCHEL, | Dr"
"Dry Goods, Groceries, Hardware, Harness and General Merchandise"
The name "Moschel" and the word "harness" have been marked through to make the heading read:
"J.R. Seybold, Dealer in Dry Goods, Groceries, Hardware, and General Merchandise."
He had written, in smaller writing, in the upper left hand corner of the stationery:
"It has been a very warm winter here and lots of l__?__ (illness ??), and a good many deaths. Just now it is cold, the coldest weather we have had this winter. It turned cold on Thursday night."
"Rice, Texas, Mar. 2nd, 1890
"Mrs. Margrett Foote
"Yours of Feb, 25th, 1890, & contents noted, was glad to hear from you, & to hear that you was (sic) all well, & to get information of the relatives, & to hear that Aunt Hatie, your mother was still living, & well, for one of her age, give her my love, & respects, & hope that she may live many years yet, & a __??__ providence yet permit us to again, & if not permitted to meet again in this world, grant that we meet again in the heavenly paradise where parting, & Sorrow will be no more. Since in Texas (?), I have heard nothing of Aunt Alley, or of any of her folks, I wrote a letter since here (sic) to John Coffman, bur received no answer -- I don't know whether he got it, or not, neither have I heard anything of Uncle Dodson & his folks, don't know whether he is still living or not. Would be glad to know of both.
"Now Margritt, you speak of looking after that money in Canada, deposited there by grandfather Jesse Seybolds, brother Silas Seybold for Jesse Seybold our grandfather or his heirs, as supposed. Now Margritt, to tell you the truth I know but very little about it, I know what has been said, & I am satisfied, that Silas Seybold made a deposit there, but whether it is just for Jesse Seybold & his heirs or not, I don't know, Now Fredrick Seybold informed me, that a good many ago, there was a Seybold, --------------------------- into --- log------------, & swam the river St. larence (sic) into Canada, to save his life, deposited in Montreal $140,000.00 for a brother, at a bank rate of 3 per cent now we know that Silas Seybold was the man -------------------------------------------------------- swam the river St. laurence (sic) into Canada to save his life, & also he never returned, but staid (sic) there, & died intestate, that is he had no heirs, & it is reasonable to infer that if he made a deposit, it was for Jesse Seybold & heirs, for those two brothers were disinherited by Jasper Seybold, their father. Now in the year 1830, I think it was, that uncle Dodson, & ????? uncle Robert, learned from I think Daniel(?) Seybold in Indiana, that Silas Seybold was still living, & was very rich. In the winter of 1870, & 1871, if I remember correctly, I was at Wheaton 25 miles N.W. from Chicago, I learned there from the (Wheaton ???) Seybold that about 6 years before that he got a lawyer in Chicago, to investigate this matter, & found a deposit of money, in the Bank Montreal (sic), Montreal Canada, for W. (or could be an "a") Seybold, that it was not for any of his family, beyond this he would not tell me who it was put in by, who it was put in for, when it was put in, or how much was put in, notwithstanding I had a letter from him stating that he new (sic) who put it in, who it was put it in for, when it was put in, & how much was put in, but his excuse that he had forgotten, & the letter was lost, that would show how it was. Guess it seemed with all the parties who I confered (sic) with, who seemed to know anything, that there was a disposition to cover up & keep back what they new. In my investigations, I was told by James Seybold that this money was put in the Bank about four years before his death, Jim, might give you some valuable information. Now Margitt, this money I am satisfied will be hard to get all money deposited in a government Bank in Canada or England, in 100 years if not claimed reverts to the English government, hence it is to their interest to cover all such deposits Hence in my view, there is but one way to get at it, that is to go to Canada, have the records of the Bank searched by an officer, or employ a good detective to work it up, for a conditional amount of the money if successful, let it not be known only to him, what you are after. An American detective would probably be the best, I think there is a record also, of all deaths ??? there. If you go there, & have the records searched, I do not think it necessary to go back beyond the year 1825, for he was alive in 1830, & deposit the money some four years before his death. I sent uncle Toms money back to him, I am now packed up to move to Ardmore, I.T. If you write to me, that will be my place of address, ........................... (last four lines mostly unreadable -- and page dog-eared over some text) .......lect, hence have .............. the information I .... & will allow you out of my part (hard to read) if, you are successful, my ..... part of, all expenses. If you do undertake that, I hope .....ill be successful, but you must be very careful, & cautious for it is ....to take shrewed work to get it."
"....ell, write soon, Yours Truly, J.R. Seybold
Note the picture of his store in Ardmore has the date "May A.D. 1890" written on the top of the facade, so he must have moved shortly after writing this letter.
11-4-1997 Aunt Hazel said that after J.R. died Amanda bought the ranch and then became ill with TB, sold the ranch for money for medical expenses and, while asleep on her pillow, Herman stole the money from under her pillow. Because of her sickness and death and the loss of their money, the younger children were orphaned and passed from family to family and got no education. Bill Cloud is said to have taken orphans in to live with him and to work in his house. Supposedly, he took in Lizzie, as she was working for him when she met Jake Cloud. Did he also take in Zeb and Lena?
1890 Census Chickasaw Nation I.T. Book 2 Pickens Co.
Seybold, J.R. and wife #29180
J.R. is 58 3 male children 3 female children Ardmore PO 8 Total in Family
The female children were Idumea, 23; Vitura, 18; Lena, 10; and Lizzie, 7 -- and perhaps Elma. Who were the three female children in the household? Obviously, Lena and Lizzie, the youngest, were there. So who was the third? Idumea's 1896 Cherokee citizenship application implies that she did not marry until after that date. It's possible Vitura was already married (but she's listed as single and living with her mother in 1900). If Elmer/Elma was a female child, this further complicates the issue (there was no one by this name on the 1880 census, so he/she would have to be less than 10 years old).
Their male children were: Herman 17, Theodore 15, Zeb 11 and Theodore may have already died by this date. This accounts for the three males, but where are Arthur and Elmer/Elma? Previous censuses imply that they were either dead or born after Zeb and before Lizzie, the youngest. If Theodore was gone by then, Arthur could be the third male.
J.R. was listed as age 38 in ILL 1870 census, 49 in the ILL 1880 census, and 58 in the 1890 Chickasaw Nation, Indian Territory, Pickens County census making him born about 1831 or 1832.
The Oklahoma land rushes were taking place in the 1890 to 1895 time frame. Perhaps J.R. participated in one of these?
We know J.R. was dead by 1896 from Idema's Cherokee citizenship application and certainly by 1900 from the census in that year sent by Jenny Garner jwgarner-at-texas.net> (below).
1900 Chickasaw Nation, Indian Territory Township 4 North Range 6 East ED 120 Sheet 27 Line 31 (dated June 23, 1900).
Seybold, A.J. (female) May 1844 56 Widow 7 children 5 living KY UNK UNK Farmer
Vitery (dau) Mar 1872 28 Single IL
Zeb (son) Mar 1879 21 Single IL
Lena (dau) Oct 1882 17 Single IL
Lizzy (dau) ? 1885 15 Single TX
T 4 N R 6 E would be the area around Ada (in present Pontotoc Co.). Using an old map dated 1899 showing Chickasaw Nation, the square would include Ada (in center bottom); Hird (or Hurd -- can't read word on map) almost in the center; and Oakman inside but almost at the border of square on the upper right. The area includes Ada, but most of it is north of Ada. Ada was a booming town during that time.
Note that Amanda's (or whoever talked to the census taker) statement of seven children differs from Lillian's and Hazel's assertion that their mother (Lizzy) said her mother (Amanda) had nine children. Also, this could well imply that there was no Elmer or Arthur. If five children were living, and four are listed above, what about Idema and Herman? We know Idema lived until at least 1923, so this must mean Herman was dead by this time? Both aunts Lillian and Hazel and cousin Dardenelle remember grandmother Lizzy saying that Herman stole the money from their mother while she was dying so he must have died soon after -- before his mother died. This could also mean that Amanda died soon after the 1900 census. The fact that Lizzy's birth month is not listed and the year is wrong, and Amanda's parents' birthplaces are listed as "UNK" may be a clue that the information was given by someone other than Amanda who didn't have all the facts straight. Perhaps Amanda was ill at that time with the tuberculosis that killed her and someone else gave the information to the census taker?
(The Chickasaw Nation included all or part of the following twelve present day counties: Bryan, Carter, Garvin, Grady, Jefferson, Johnston, Love, McClain, Marshall, Murray, Pontotoc and Stephens.)
According to volume III of CEMETERY INSCRIPTIONS OF CARTER COUNTY, OKLAHOMA, which includes Rose Hill Cemetery in Ardmore, it says "In checking a number of different sources it appears there were two other older, or at least as old, cemeteries in Ardmore. The remains from at least one of these cemeteries were removed to Rose Hill prior to statehood (1907). One source says around 1895 and another says about the turn of the century. A check of the 1895 newspapers did not reveal any stories concerning a cemetery move. Rose Hill was opened for burial in 1895 and once called South Cemetery."
The book "INDIAN TERRITORY AND CARTER COUNTY PIONEERS" says "In April 1895, the largest fire in the history of Ardmore started in Harper's Livery Stable on North Caddo. Due to high winds, the fire spread rapidly to the back of the stores on Main Street ... several merchants were uninsured." Perhaps J.R.'s store was destroyed then? Perhaps he died in the fire?
In a letter dated 2-21-1997, Aunt Hazel (Cloud) Brown wrote of their family: "1. Herman, no children; 2. Iduma, no children; 3. Theodore, died young; 4. Arthur, no children; 5. Zebulon, four children: John, Lyn, Irma; 6. Lena, no children; 7. Vitura, one daughter, Theo Harris, married to Martha Harris children Opal, Winfred, Arthur, Allen, they had oil wells, last account of them they were in Sulphur, Oklahoma; 8. Elizabeth - mother and had ten children."
On 2-23-1998, aunt Hazel said "momma said her mother had 9 kids". Though I can find no evidence of either Elmer/Elma or Arthur, Hazel's recollection lends credibility to their having been children of Amanda and J.R.
||Lottie (__), b. Abt 1871, d. |
||Coalgate, Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, USA
- [S57] Illinois Marriage Record Index, License 2473-1/2, McDonough County.
- [S135] 1880 US federal census.