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The William Cloud controversy

    The controversy as to whether there were two William Clouds, father and son (son and grandson of Jeremiah Cloud), or whether they were the same person living in two different places, is examined here.  It will be shown that the elder William is the son of Jeremiah – referred to here as William Cloud – while the younger – William Jasper Cloud – and referred to as William J. Cloud, is the son of William the elder and a grandson of Jeremiah Cloud.

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The book "Youngblood-Armstrong & Allied Familes" by Frances Youngblood and Floelle Youngblood Bonner states the following:  "At his death, his only surviving sons, H.G.W. (Wash) Cloud and Francis M. Cloud applied for administration papers on his estate.  H.G.W. Cloud stated that his mother was the one by law to administer, but that she was extremely old, over seventy.  Elizabeth, the mother, felt that H.G.W. should not administer, because of his total blindness and also the distance from her, as 'he lived on the opposite side of the river'." (Vol. 2, p. 60, Ct. Rec. Austin, Tex.)  His youngest son, F.M. (Francis Marion) Cloud, and his widow were named executor and executrix of his estate."  William J. Cloud of Milam county was alive at this time, so the clear implication is that he was not a son.  While this is not proof without supporting documentation (i.e. where did they get the part about H.G.W. and F.M. being the only surviving sons -- John Clark Cloud, a son, did not die until 1868), it does bring up an interesting point -- if William Jasper Cloud of Milam county were a son of Jeremiah (and not a grandson), why did he not petition to be an administrator of the estate, and why did he not participate in the lawsuits against F.M. Cloud?

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Stated simply, the proof for the William Cloud (1800-bef 1850) and Margaret Frizzle being in our line is the dovetailing of the probate list of names with the census records of Alabama and Texas, and it is cemented by a letter from Thomas N. Cloud of Alabama to his uncle F.M. Cloud requesting his share of Jeremiah's inheritance and naming Elzena as his sister.  There is no known conflicting evidence.  Investigation of Georgia, Alabama and Texas census and marriage records show no other possible grouping of people who could be these two families -- that of Jeremiah's son, William and his wife Margaret Frizzle Cloud of Alabama and that of his son (Jeremiah's grandson), William Jasper and his wife Elizabeth Boyd Cloud of Milam county, Texas.

The probate files were transcribed by Ellen Williams Crawford.  All together, 76 pages of 10 pt., closely spaced verbiage totaling over 32,000 words and spanning some 20 years of familial bickering.  I hope that we can avoid continued discord and use these records to ferret out the truth about our family.

This is not a presentation of the entire probate -- but only those parts which seemed relevant -- and anyone is welcome to point out where anything may have been missed or misinterpreted.  Every attempt was made to note the date and page number where each item was found and the notes are labeled so that they are not mistaken for a document.  The probate transcription project by Ellen consists of six different computer files.  The name of each of those files – and the date and page where each passage was found is noted.

The Probate can be seen on the Clues Page

Thomas N. Cloud's letters

Alabama Marriages

 

This is in three parts:  I. PROBATE;  II. CENSUS;  III.  MISC. CLUES
===================================================
(my file CloudR.001.txt)
Vol R pps 61-84 Austin Co Probates; LDS Film # 1017526

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August of 1861
==================
 ** (below is a first statement of what land was involved in the estate – interesting that no land in Alabama or Georgia is listed.)

155 1/2 acres Home tract in Austin County apprsd at $15 per acre   $2332.50
169      "     "    "        "      "       "        12.00          2028.00
189 1/8  "     "    "        "      "       "        10.00          1891.25
24 1/3   "     "    "        "      "       "         6.00           146.00
100 1/2  "     "    "   Washington  "       "        10.00          1005.00
320      "     "    "     Bosque    "       "         1.00           320.00
320      "     "    "     Bexar     "       "         1.00           320.00
640      "     "    "      Austin   "       "         6.00           384.00


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April, 1862 is a transaction to a Wm J. Cloud
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1 Sorrel mare & colt to Wm J Cloud                                       143.00

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(my file Probate12.txt)
Vol R page 6; Austin Co TX Probate ; LDS Film # 1017526
From Minutes G page 212 (65)

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February 9th 1870  .... another reference to a Wm. J. -- obviously the same debt
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Wm J Cloud F M Cloud Apr 24/62 due at 9 mos...........................143.00

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November, 1869
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  ****  HERE IS PROOF!  ....  THE YOUNGER Wm.J. IS ALIVE AND THE ELDER IS DECEASED!

From Minutes G page 252
 ...... final settlement of said estate.
  ..............
     The names of the heirs & distributees of said estate are as follows residents & now residents, known & unknown.

(the above should probably read "non-residents")
(bullets added by editor)

  •      H G W Cloud, Austin County.
  •      James M Cloud, Austin County.
  •      The children of J C Cloud, Milam County.
  •      The children of William Cloud to wit: William Cloud of Milam County, Thomas Cloud & two others residents of Alabama &
  •      Franklin Cobb son of Mary Cobb a daughter of dec'd of Barbour County Alabama.
  •      The children of Elizabeth Connelly to wit: Mary Washam, Louisa Henderson, Isaac Connolly, Jet Conolly,
  •      the children of E L Gates to with: Elizabeth Manning & Mary Gates all the last named being residents of Austin County Texas.

 ** (F.M. and Alexander are omitted from the list -- why ?)

From Minutes G page 356
==================
December 4th AD 1869
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11  W J Cloud & F M Cloud note Apl 24/62 due at 9 mos..............  143.00


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July 1870
==================
  ****  NOTE THAT THE YOUNGER Wm. J’s GRAVESTONE SAYS HE DIED IN SEPTEMBER 1871 AND YET HE IS SHOWN DECEASED HERE, IN JULY of 1870 !

  ***  (THE WORDING BELOW DOES NOT IMPLY THAT THE (younger) Wm J IS THE SON ! .... the  November 1869 entry above and the later entries are clear that William J. Cloud is the son-of-a-son of Jeremiah!   The wording is critical -- "a son said intestate" is not the same as "a son OF said intestate" ...  this is an amendment to the above petition, specifying the grandchildren of Jeremiah who were omitted from the previous petition, specifically the children of J.C. (John Clark) Cloud and of William J. Cloud, son of William Cloud, son of Jeremiah.   .... Also, the “W C Cloud” may be a transcription error as it has to be referring to William J. Cloud's eldest son, Wm. Lafayette (W.L.) and Wilhelmina is called “William”.)

From minutes G page 359 (69) (this is F.M. applying for an amendment)
... now comes F M Cloud one of the heirs of said dec'd & records his original petition for partition filed Nov 2nd 1869 and for amendment and by way of supplemental petition alleges that the name of the children of J C Cloud Dec'd, a son of said intestate whose names were represented in said original petition as unknown are as follows.   Mary Rogers formerly Mary Cloud with her husband J D Rogers.  J C Cloud, Margaret Carter formerly Margaret Cloud with her husband C Carter, Francis Rutherford formerly Frances Cloud with her husband J H Rutherford, and Melissa Cloud and Jerry Cloud minors having no legal guardian all of the above named parties being residents of Milam County Texas and petitioner further says that the following named persons are the children of William J Cloud, dec'd.  A son said intestate to wit:  Rebecca Cloud, W C Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud, Mary Cloud, James Cloud, Robert Cloud and William Cloud all residents of Milam County Texas and all minors without a legal guardian except the said Rebecca Cloud.  And petitioner pray for a citation to all of the above named parties to appear and answer at the July Term AD 1870 of said district court of Austin County in matters of probate and administration and show cause if any why partition of the estate of Jeremiah Cloud dec'd should not be made in accordance with law as prayed for..

 **  NOTICE THE WORDING FOR THE JUNIOR OF J.C. CLOUD -- as that is the form for future references to the junior of the elder William  .... “the children of J C Cloud ... son ... J C Cloud” (this is father & son)

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(my file Probate22.txt) (70)

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July 1871
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   *** (note: I’ve edited this text to add numerals for each 1/9 heir)

     To the Sheriff or any Constable of Milam County...... for final discharge, that the names of the heirs are

1 - H G W Cloud, Austin County,
2 - James M Cloud, Austin County,
3 - children of J C Cloud, Milam County,
4 - the children of William Cloud, Milam County, Thomas Cloud and two others residents of Alabama,
5 - Franklin Cobb, son of Mary Cobb a daughter of the dec'd of Barbour County, Alabama,
6 - Mary Washam, Louisa Henderson, Isaac Conoly, J N Conoly, children of Elizabeth Conoly and
7 - Elizabeth Manning and Mary Gates children of E L Gates, all the last named being residents of Austin County Texas

  ** (F.M. and Alexander are missing from above)

 ... the names of the children of J C Cloud dec'd are as follows: Mary Rogers, formerly Mary Cloud with her husband J D Rogers.  J C Cloud, Margaret Carter with her husband C Carter, Francis Rutherford with her husband J H Rutherford and Malissa and Jerry Cloud minors having no legal guardian all residents in Milam County Texas

  *** (I show that Malissa died the year before in 1870 ??)

 ... and the following named persons are the children of Wm J Cloud dec'd.  Rebecca Cloud, W L. Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud, Mary Cloud, James Cloud, Robert and William Cloud also of Milam County Texas and all minors with legal guardian except Rebecca Cloud...

  *** Item 4, above, lists one group of heirs (children of the elder William), recipients of a one-ninth share.  But, since William's eldest son, William J., is dead, his inheritance is passed on to his children.  So, the listing of these heirs is in two parts:
        A - the children of William Cloud (a son of the elder), and
        B - the elder William's three other children: Thomas Cloud and two others residents of Alabama
  *** Then, here, the children of William Cloud, Jr. are enumerated, and we know who they are.

     Wherefore you are hereby commanded that you summon the said Mary and JD Rogers, J C Cloud, Margaret and C Carter, Frances and J H Rutherford, Melissa and Jerry Cloud, minors and Rebecca Cloud, W L Cloud, Margaret Cloud, D Cloud, Mary Cloud, James Cloud, Robert Cloud and Wm Cloud....


From Minutes G page 469

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August, 1871
==================
  ***** HERE IS PROOF AGAIN !
  ***** NOTE THE SIMILARITY IN THE WORDING FOR THE JUNIORS FOR JC AND Wm J.

 ........  the following named persons as entitled are minors and have no legal guardian in this state.  To wit: Mellisa Cloud, Jerry Cloud, W L Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud, Mary Cloud, James Cloud, Robert Cloud and Wm Cloud.... the following named persons ... are not residents of this state, to wit, ?Franklin Cobb son of Mary Cobb a daughter of dec'd and Elzina Cloud and Elizabeth Cloud children of William Cloud a son of dec'd

 ** (notice the above PROOF! ...  "William Cloud a son of dec'd".  William J. Cloud of Milam county was this man's son -- and he did not have daughters named Elzina or Elizabeth!)

 .....  the following named persons are entitled to a proportional part or share of said estate as follows, less the amount of advancement to each if any:  (bullets added by editor)

  •  H G W Cloud of Austin County Texas 1/9
  •  James M Cloud of Austin County Texas 1/9
  •  A J Cloud dec'd (F M Cloud assignee) of Austin County Texas 1/9
  •  F M Cloud of Austin County Texas 1/9
  • The children of J C Cloud dec'd, a son of the intestate residents of Milam County Texas.  To wit: J C Cloud, Jerry Cloud, Mary Rogers wife of J D Rogers, Margaret Carter wife of C Carter, Frances Rutherford wife of J H Rutherford. 1/9
  • The children of William Cloud dec'd a son of the intestate to wit: The children of William J Cloud viz; Rebecca Cloud, W L Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud, and Mary Cloud of Milam County Texas and Thomas Cloud, Elzira Cloud and Elizabeth Cloud residing in Alabama.  1/9
  • Franklin Cobb, son of Mary Cobb dec's a daughter of the dec'd a resident of Barbour County Alabama 1/9
  • The children of Elizabeth Conolly dec'd a daughter of dec'd to wit: Mary Washam, Lousa Henderson, Isaac Conolly and J W Conolly (all of Austin County Texas) 1/9
  • The children of E L Gates to wit: Elizabeth Manning and Mary Gates, residents of Austin County Texas 1/9

     And the following is a description of all the estate to be distributed to wit:
     287 acres of land out of the J Stevenson League on Caney Creek in Austin County.  50 1/4 acres out of the J Stevenson League on Caney Creek in Washington County.  Undivided « of 640 acres headright of dec'd in Bosque County.  (72) Undivided « of 640 acres A J Cloud headright in Bosque County.  Undivided « of 320 acres J M Cloud headright in Jones County.
........
11  Note on Wm J Cloud and F M Cloud April 24th 1862 due at 9 months........................................................  143.00
(74)
 ......  said absentees being so follows:  Franklin Cobb, Thomas Cloud, Elizabeth Cloud, Elzina Cloud all of the State of Alabama
.........The names of said minors being as follows:  Melissa Cloud and Jerry Cloud, children of J C Cloud dec'd, William F Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud, Mary Cloud, James Cloud, Robert Cloud and William Cloud, children of William J Cloud and all said minors being residents of Milam County Texas.
(75) ..... the following named persons so entitled are minors and have no legal guardian in this state to wit: Melissa Cloud, Jerry Cloud, W L Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud, Mary Cloud, James Cloud, Robert Cloud and Wm Cloud.
 .......are not residents of this State to wit: Franklin Cobb son of Mary Cobb a daughter of deceased and Elzina Cloud and Elizabeth Cloud children of William Cloud a son of dec'd

 ****  ABOVE IS ANOTHER LIST OF THE ELDER WILLIAM’S CHILDREN, Elizina & Elizabeth (Elizina had a first cousin named Elizina, dau of her mother’s brother, Jason FRIZZLE).

......  (bullets added by editor)

  • H G W Cloud of Austin County Texas     1/9
  • James M Cloud of Austin County Texas   1/9
  • A J Cloud dec'd, F M Cloud assignee, Austin County Texas 1/9
  • F M Cloud of Austin County Texas   1/9
  • The children of J C Cloud dec'd s son of intestate residents of Milam County Texas to wit: J C Cloud, Jerry Cloud, Mary Rogers, wife of J D Rogers, Margaret Carter, wife of C Carter, Frances Rutherford, wife of J H Rutherford  1/9
  • The children of William Cloud dec'd a son of the intestate to wit: the children of William J Cloud viz: Rebecca Cloud, W L Cloud, Margaret Cloud, Thomas Cloud, D Cloud and Mary Cloud of Milam County Texas and Thomas Cloud, Elzina Cloud and Elizabeth Cloud residing in Alabama.   1/9

  ****  PROOF! .... ANOTHER STATEMENT OF THE FATHER-SON Wm. J. CLOUDs

  • Franklin Cobb son of Mary Cobb dec'd, a daughter of dec'd a resident of Barbour County Alabama 1/9
  • The children of Elizabeth Conolly dec'd a daughter of decd to wit: Mary Washam, Louisa Henderson, Isaac Conolly and J H Connoly (all residents of Austin County Texas   1/9
  • The children of E L Gates to wit: Elizabeth Manning and Mary Gates, residents of Austin County Texas 1/9
     .....
    11   Note on Wm J Cloud and F M Cloud April 24th 1863 due at  9 months...................................................   143.00

 

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(my file CLOUDU.001.txt)  transcribed by Ellen M.W. Crawford

Vol U pp 123 - 126; Austin County Probate; LDS Film # 1019260

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January 1876/1877   ***** A suit by Frank COBB
==================
(123)
In County Court. January Term /77.  Estate of Jeremiah Cloud deceased.  To the Hon. John A Bill County Judge.  Frank Cobb a resident of the state of Alabama County of Benton with respect makes known to your Honor that he is one of the heirs of said deceased and entitled to a distributive share of 1/9 .......


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May 22, 1877      **** The suit by Franklin COBB stirred the pot:
==================
....... said funds or accts now for distribution are to be divided into nine equal shares each to go in the manner and to the persons respective as fixed and established by the decree of partition herein of July 1871 as follows to wit:
1st  H G W Cloud Austin County Texas 1/9.
2nd  James M Cloud Austin County 1/9.
3rd  The children of J C Cloud decd Milam County Texas to with, Melissa Cloud, Jerry Cloud, Mary Rogers wife of J D Rogers, Margaret Carter wife of C Carter, Francis Rutherford wife of J H Rutherford 1/9.
4th  The children of William Cloud decd to wit:  William J Cloud, Rebecca, W D, Margaret, Thomas, D Cloud, Mary, James, Robert, William Cloud of Milam County and Eugene (?) Cloud, Thomas Cloud & Elizabeth Cloud all of Alabama 1/9.

  **** (William J. must be William L., William must be Wilhelmina, “Eugene” Must be “Elizina”  ....  reviewing the originals of the probate would probably clear this up).

5th  A J Cloud decd (F M Cloud) assignee 1/9.
6th  F M Cloud Austin County 1/9.
7th  Franklin Cobb (son of Mary Cobb daughter of deceased) of Benton Co Aa 1/9.
8th  The children of Elizabeth Conolly, daughter of decd to wit:  Mary Washam, Louisa Henderson, Isaac Conolly and J W Conolly Austin Co 1/9.
9th  The children of E B Gates to wit:  Elizabeth Manning and Mary Gates, Austin Co 1/9.

Carried to page 168.
Vol U pp 168-169; Austin County TX Probates; LDS Film # 1019260

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July, 1881  *** THE CHILDREN OF THE ELDER -- SIBLINGS OF THE YOUNGER:
==================
        In the County Civil Court Sept Term 1881.  In matters of probate in the est of Jeremiah Cloud decd.  Your petitioner W J Glenn of said county & state who was duly appointed & qualified as gdn ad litum for the minor & absent heirs of said Est also acting as an agent for the absent heirs to wit,  Elizinia, Thomas & Elizabeth Cloud all of the state of Alabama   .... . . . . .
Filed July 17, 1881

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                    *****  CENSII  *****
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1820 Washington County Georgia census
===============================
Thomas Frizzle
  four males under 10 (Jason-9, Ephraim-5, Jackson-3 & Gayle~2)
  one female 10-16 (Margaret-11)
  one female 16-26 (probably Temperance)


1830, Montgomery County AL census
===============================
Jeremiah Cloud
males in house:
   under 5 = 1 (F.M.-1)
   over 10 and under 15 = 1 (Alex-10)
   over 15 and under 20 = 2 (J.C. at 15/16 and James M. at 18/19)
   over 40 and under 50 (Jeremiah at 46)
females in house:
   under 5 = 1 (Elizabeth or Elcena ?)
   over 30 and under 39 = 1

*** TRY TO ADD THE YOUNGER WILLIAM J. AS A CHILD TO THE ABOVE CENSUS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS (he would have been 4 years old) !!


1840 Pike Co AL Census.
===============================
William Cloud
  males
   under 5, 1 (Thomas~3)
     10-15, 1 (Wm Jr-14)
     30-40, 1 (Wm Sr-39)
  females
   under 5, 1 (Elizabeth~3)
     10-15, 1 (Elzena-15)
     30-40, 1 (Margaret Frizzle-30)
*** NOTE THAT THE AGE FOR Wm Jr COMES OUT RIGHT FOR OUR YOUNGER WILLIAM.


1850 Pike county Alabama census - p. 184:
===============================
Cloud, Margaret    41 F    b. GA    (can't read or write)
       Elzena      25 F    b. AL
       Thomas       7 M    b. AL
       Margaret     2 F
*** HERE ARE THE PEOPLE REFERRED TO BY THE PROBATE AS CHILDREN OF Wm, RESIDENTS OF ALABAMA -- ELZENA & THOMAS.  (The elder William must have died.)

1850 Pike county Alabama census:
===============================
Thomas Frizel, 76, b: NC
Temperance, 65, MD
Jason Frizel, 40, GA
Utha, 40, GA
Clark, 18, AL
Jeptha, 15, AL
Thomas, 13, AL
Mary, 11, AL
Temperance, 8, AL
Elzena, 5, AL

** Thomas is the elder Wm. J. Cloud’s father-in-law and he and his wife, Tempy, are living with their son, Jason and his family.  Jason, the elder William’s bro-in-law, had a daughter named Elizina -- a first cousin to William’s daughter by the same name.

1860 Pike county Alabama census pg. 81, Western Div., P.O. Bruceville:
===============================
Cloud, Margaret 57(51?) F. b.GA    (real estate $3500; pers prop $13,000
       Thomas N.    17  M. b. AL    F. Laborer
       Isabel       21  F     b. AL
Adams, William      25  M.    b. AL    Overseer

*** THE HOUSEHOLD OF THE ELDER Wm AGAIN, WITH NAMES REFERRED TO BY THE PROBATE AS CHILDREN OF Wm, RESIDENTS OF ALABAMA -- THOMAS ONLY IS AT HOME AT THIS TIME.  IT IS NOT KNOWN WHAT BECAME OF ELZENA OR ELIZABETH AND MARGARET, WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN 12, WAS NOT MENTIONED IN THE PROBATE SO MUST HAVE DIED PRIOR TO 1860.


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Lura Black contributes a search for all Clouds in Alabama censuses:
 In 1810 Alabama - no CLOUD's were listed
 In 1820 Alabama - have nothing, not sure why
 In 1830 Alabama - Frank (Jackson Cty), HGW (Montgomery Cty), Jeremiah (Montgomery Cty), Samuel G. (Monroe Cty)
 In 1840 Alabama - (Francis (Jackson Cty), HGW (Montgomery Cty), J. F. (Pike County), Jason (Benton Cty), William (Madison Cty), William (Pike County)


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                    *****  MISC. CLUES  *****
=====================================================================

THE NAME ELIZINA OFFERS A CLUE.  How many Elizina’s are there?

    gen. 1 Thomas Frizzle ......  Jason Frizzle  ........ Jeremiah Cloud
    gen. 2   (1) dau of Thos.      (2) dau of Jason      (3) dau of Jeremiah
    gen. 3   (4) dau of elder Wm. J.

   The following information regarding E.L. Cloud, daughter of Jeremiah, who married Wm. Gates, is germaine because the Pike census above and the Washington TX below show us that we have different Elizinas.

    1850 census - Washington County TX, page 319, taken in NOV
    Wm Gates, 27, b: GA
    E. L., 27, b: AL

   By 1860, William Gates and E.L. must have died, because their daughter Elizabeth is living with E.L.’s parents.

    1860 census - Austin County, page 226, taken June
    Jeremiah, 74, GA
    Elizabeth, 72, GA
    Francis Marion, 29, AL
    Elizabeth Gates, 12, TX
    Nancy Gates, 10, TX


****************************************************************
The letters of Thomas N. Cloud, brother of Elizina, nephew of F.M. Cloud (son of Jeremiah) and heir of Jeremiah's estate.  A letter, dated Jan 22, 1879 from Thomas N. Cloud addressed to his uncle, F.M. Cloud.  In it, he makes reference to "sister Elzena".  The weight of evidence presented by the censuses says this Thomas N. is the son of the elder William and Margaret Frizzle and Elzena is his sister.  (THOMAS N., SON OF THE YOUNGER, DID NOT HAVE A SISTER NAMED ELZENA!!)  The elder William is the brother to F.M. and died before 1850.  This Thomas N., following this argument, is the nephew of F.M.  (Of course, the Thomas N., son of the younger, would also be a nephew -- if the younger were actually the son of Jeremiah and not the grandson.)

** IN THIS LETTER, HE STATES THAT HIS SISTER ELZENA IS WIDOWED -- THIS GIVES US A LATEST DATE FOR THE DEATH OF JOHN SESSIONS OF JANUARY 1879.
****************************************************************

****************************************************************
If Jeremiah and Elizabeth weren’t the parents of the elder William Cloud, what did they do for birth control the first eight years of their marriage?
****************************************************************

 


  
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